Ok here's the situation:
Client agrees upon price and contract - provider also agrees to initial contract and price.
initial 50% down payment is received, work begins
Client attempts to modify initial contract - provider does not agree to modifications, client then agrees to remain under initial contract terms.
Work is completed in excess of the original contract items/tasks (client had requested additional tasks be performed during the contract, provider handled them in good faith).
Client is billed for the remainder of fees as due on contract completion.
Client refuses to pay stating provider agreed to contract modification when such was not the case.
Basically put the work was done (and quite a few hours of work was spent in excess of the original contract), client refuses to pay stating it was unsatisfactory since the client now needs additional modifications done beyond the contract and is attempting to get them handled under the original terms (which he attempted to modify after the fact).
-While I understand many of us, myself included do believe in the customer is always right. There is a limit to that phrase and I myself feel that limit wholely applies to this situation. (I'll note this is a real situation in fact, and unfortunately as this is online work there was no signed document, which basically would cause issues I'm sure). I'll further note that this was not handled as a b2b service.unfortunately as this is online work there was no signed document, which basically would cause issues I'm sure). I'll further note that this was not handled as a b2b service.
I'm not an expert but if you haven't signed a contract, I don't believe there is anything you can do. I would recommend you look at <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.hostlegal.com">http://www.hostlegal.com</a><!-- m --> - this might be a bit of help to you.
Just a tip though, next time you do some work, I guess the best thing to do is write a contract and ask the client to sign and fax or email back to you, then you could take legal action.
May I ask how much are you still owed?Verbal agreement was in effect. Client is notified of such and taken to collections if necessary.No official contract therefore theres really not much you can do except give yourself a kick and remember to write one for next timeWhich country are you / your client in?No signed contract? Move on and consider it a learning experience.--TinaI agree with Tina! People used to try things like this with me. I don't work with individuals in the web-design area anymore. I'm working permanently for one client which is so much better than working with a million little ones always trying not to pay.Next time get a signed contract or make people pay up front.....good luck in your future ventures.Thanks for the input guys and gal(s). Guessing I'm going to have to go the road I had thought and require up front payments for providing any type of managed or management services to avoid future occurrances.Customers are not always right, meer exampe; customer:" so you want $18,900 for this car .... i just seen this car for $3,000 over at bob pinkas motor vehicle and i feel your pricing is too high. this car should be priced around 3,492" sales man: " but this is an 07 model.. theres no way" customer "yes way.. im a customer and purchased cars from you guys before.. im always right ... remember... im a customer" -- lolIf you don't have a signed contract then its not much you can do, dont send the thing refund his 50% and sale his script or whatever you created for him. Its THAT kind of people (not you but him) that makes everyone else look bad including my self. I dont have a whole lot of money but if I need something done I always agree to pay half and then when I see the product is finished to pay the rest, its that kind of people that make others dont belive in the people who pay half up front and then the rest later.This makes me angry..No, don't refund him and don't give him the finished product either. Consider it payment for your time wasted and when he coughs up the remainder, give him the product.--TinaNo, don't refund him and don't give him the finished product either. Consider it payment for your time wasted and when he coughs up the remainder, give him the product.
--Tina
Thats why I love you Tina, you always have the right answer.
I completely agree with you though.. dont refund him or dont give him the rest of the product stay with the contract and when he brings up the other rest then give him a product.
Well said Tina, well done.I'm not an expert but if you haven't signed a contract, I don't believe there is anything you can do. I would recommend you look at <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.hostlegal.com">http://www.hostlegal.com</a><!-- m --> - this might be a bit of help to you.
Just a tip though, next time you do some work, I guess the best thing to do is write a contract and ask the client to sign and fax or email back to you, then you could take legal action.
May I ask how much are you still owed?Now-a-days, Emails can act as such of a signed contract -- If you emailed him the contract terms and he agreed to it, It had a chance to stand up in court -- HOWEVER; a Signed contract has a larger chance of winning..Im just saying, if he agreed to the contract via email and paid half the money and is planning on coming after you for that money back, you may have a chance.Better safe then sorry, get a signed contract next timeOk before everyone continues, I'll put some perspective upon the situation. This wasn't a tangible product/script per say. The contractual agreement was in place for server administration work (migration of data as well as several other tasks). As stated everything in the original agreed upon contract was completed and working, client then made changes and is attempting to void said contract by grabbing at every straw he can possibly find. Thus, as already mentioned it's definitely something that has me rethinking how payments will be handled (at this point I highly doubt I'll be doing 50/50 payments or due on contract at all for that matter).A lesson has been learnt, no one can be trusted these days. If I understand that correctly than you offered a service to the client. I try to see both sides ( the service providers and the customers).1) For me is not clear yet if you and the customer had at some time the same "idea" of what is being worked on. This should be ideally the initial service you agreed on. You should review once more any information you have. perhaps you have missinterpreted what the customer really wanted ?2) Which part is it that the customer doesnt agree on ? Is it really worth struggling about it or not better to just go the extra mile and make the customer coming back (and take it as a lesson) ?3) Assuming you are 400% right: Then by all means go for it. Explain the customer very carefully what you agreed on and what you didnt.Try to make the customer see/understand why its not possible to do what he requested (use visual samples). 4) Refunds: "To refund or not - is that a question ?"It depends on your policy and additude towards customers. There are some companies out there that would straight away refund all money, no questions asked as they want to keep 100% satisified customers. The problems with unsatisfied customers is that they might provide bad word of mouth for your business and you might never know it.It is a certain "Art" to make the customer understand what was beeing agreed on, especially if the situation looks lost.Anyway, good luck !!3) Assuming you are 400% right: Then by all means go for it. Explain the customer very carefully what you agreed on and what you didnt.This was already done, and the customer still attempted to grab at straws and come up with entirely invalid reasons to attempt to void the contract that was agreed upon. On IM logs I have at least 2-3 instances of the original contract of what was agreed upon. Obviously as I'm not one to name and shame as I don't feel the necessity to post the company in question publicly at this point in time. Due to the fact that there was more work done than what was present in the contract (to attempt to keep this client happy...), I feel it's quite obvious at this point the said individual is just trying to get more work done for free.So valentin_nils, yes he knew what was agreed to, he also received more than he was paying for to attempt to keep him content, and the said client ended up still not paying upon contract completion. All this said I doubt he'll be able to find any managed service provider with how he is attempting to con people.I agree with Frimon86 - it's only a kind of people. And completely agree with Tina..This was already done, and the customer still attempted to grab at straws and come up with entirely invalid reasons to attempt to void the contract that was agreed upon. On IM logs I have at least 2-3 instances of the original contract of what was agreed upon. Obviously as I'm not one to name and shame as I don't feel the necessity to post the company in question publicly at this point in time. Due to the fact that there was more work done than what was present in the contract (to attempt to keep this client happy...), I feel it's quite obvious at this point the said individual is just trying to get more work done for free.
So valentin_nils, yes he knew what was agreed to, he also received more than he was paying for to attempt to keep him content, and the said client ended up still not paying upon contract completion. All this said I doubt he'll be able to find any managed service provider with how he is attempting to con people.
We do a lot of development projects, and let me tell you, this stuff happens ALL THE TIME. It's official term, as far as I know, is 'Scope Creep'.
The downside of this, is now it takes me about 4 times longer to write up a work contract, because every bit of every piece I can think of gets detailed.
The up side is, we have a solid policy now. No modifications are accepted until the origional contract is fulfilled. With 50% up front, and 50% on completion. If they decide to can the project after the contract is signed, they can buy out of the contract for 50% of the remaining balance (i.e. at 75% fee) provided our work list in the contract is not complete.
The real trick is, you have to stop these guys early on. If you give an inch, they'll try and take a mile. That's why we have our 'no modifications until after' policy. One rule to govern them all, and let them know you actually respect your time and what you do. When you compromise in the middle of a project, you're not holding true to your word, period.
Don't let bully customers push you around.My advice is- dont take legal advice from a webhosting forum and have an agreement in place that specifically outlines the work to be done and make the customer initial the section that explains the procedure on how to modify the agreement. Don't let Scope creep kill you!ahh yes, another lesson to be learned through experience. Many people have suggested many things in this forum, many of which are extremely good advice. As a business owner I would highly suggest that from now on you always have the contract in some form of writing. As i do web hosting, most of my conversations take place over internet. So i highly suggest the use of Trillian messenger, it records all conversations, so you may look them up at a later date. As for your situation where it was a verbal contract, there is no way of doing anything about it, as it is just you word against his. I would suggest that you go out of your way to do what he has asked to be added in the contract so you can make the customer happy. Though it will be more work, he will be a happy customer. As in any business it is better to take a hit and have happy customers than to be a ignorant to the customer. Good luck with the out come man. <<Signature to be setup in your profile>>With something involving online transactions the best thing is to invest in a fax machine for the signing of doduments that clearly state the terms of agreement. I would have to agree that having a fax machine is vital for any business that signs contracts on a regular basis.Even with a contract you will still have problems. In the future just pick and choose your clients wisely, if you feel someone is not going to provide you with problems then go with that gut feeling and move onto the next project.Thanks for the input guys and gal(s). Guessing I'm going to have to go the road I had thought and require up front payments for providing any type of managed or management services to avoid future occurrances.
Always require a contract. Build a default template, a business lawyer will help you do this for about $1k. Make sure the scope of work is included in that contract, usually as an addendum. Define the problem to be solved, the agreed SOW in order to complete this work, and the deliverables that create billing hits.
I usually do my contracts 50/50 or 30/60/10. I like the 30/60/10 policy, basically what it entails is:
30% up-front to begin work
60% when all major deliverables are met (written in such a way that this is the half-way point)
10% when all deliverables are met (usually includes the hard to determine deliverables like documentation, completness, etc).
I've found that on 30/60/10 I've had far less consulting customers attempt to pull a fast one on me, or claim that we did verbal agreements for certain things. My contract specifically states that the contract cannot be modified verbally, and describes the procedure as to how the contract may be modified.This is what I always do, accept payment (not full) as I am closing in, I ask for the remainder and wait for it. once received, I finish it. if it is a large amount... I divide the work into portions and receive payments at every stage... if the customer backs out towards the end, at least I know I have money's worth.
Client agrees upon price and contract - provider also agrees to initial contract and price.
initial 50% down payment is received, work begins
Client attempts to modify initial contract - provider does not agree to modifications, client then agrees to remain under initial contract terms.
Work is completed in excess of the original contract items/tasks (client had requested additional tasks be performed during the contract, provider handled them in good faith).
Client is billed for the remainder of fees as due on contract completion.
Client refuses to pay stating provider agreed to contract modification when such was not the case.
Basically put the work was done (and quite a few hours of work was spent in excess of the original contract), client refuses to pay stating it was unsatisfactory since the client now needs additional modifications done beyond the contract and is attempting to get them handled under the original terms (which he attempted to modify after the fact).
-While I understand many of us, myself included do believe in the customer is always right. There is a limit to that phrase and I myself feel that limit wholely applies to this situation. (I'll note this is a real situation in fact, and unfortunately as this is online work there was no signed document, which basically would cause issues I'm sure). I'll further note that this was not handled as a b2b service.unfortunately as this is online work there was no signed document, which basically would cause issues I'm sure). I'll further note that this was not handled as a b2b service.
I'm not an expert but if you haven't signed a contract, I don't believe there is anything you can do. I would recommend you look at <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.hostlegal.com">http://www.hostlegal.com</a><!-- m --> - this might be a bit of help to you.
Just a tip though, next time you do some work, I guess the best thing to do is write a contract and ask the client to sign and fax or email back to you, then you could take legal action.
May I ask how much are you still owed?Verbal agreement was in effect. Client is notified of such and taken to collections if necessary.No official contract therefore theres really not much you can do except give yourself a kick and remember to write one for next timeWhich country are you / your client in?No signed contract? Move on and consider it a learning experience.--TinaI agree with Tina! People used to try things like this with me. I don't work with individuals in the web-design area anymore. I'm working permanently for one client which is so much better than working with a million little ones always trying not to pay.Next time get a signed contract or make people pay up front.....good luck in your future ventures.Thanks for the input guys and gal(s). Guessing I'm going to have to go the road I had thought and require up front payments for providing any type of managed or management services to avoid future occurrances.Customers are not always right, meer exampe; customer:" so you want $18,900 for this car .... i just seen this car for $3,000 over at bob pinkas motor vehicle and i feel your pricing is too high. this car should be priced around 3,492" sales man: " but this is an 07 model.. theres no way" customer "yes way.. im a customer and purchased cars from you guys before.. im always right ... remember... im a customer" -- lolIf you don't have a signed contract then its not much you can do, dont send the thing refund his 50% and sale his script or whatever you created for him. Its THAT kind of people (not you but him) that makes everyone else look bad including my self. I dont have a whole lot of money but if I need something done I always agree to pay half and then when I see the product is finished to pay the rest, its that kind of people that make others dont belive in the people who pay half up front and then the rest later.This makes me angry..No, don't refund him and don't give him the finished product either. Consider it payment for your time wasted and when he coughs up the remainder, give him the product.--TinaNo, don't refund him and don't give him the finished product either. Consider it payment for your time wasted and when he coughs up the remainder, give him the product.
--Tina
Thats why I love you Tina, you always have the right answer.
I completely agree with you though.. dont refund him or dont give him the rest of the product stay with the contract and when he brings up the other rest then give him a product.
Well said Tina, well done.I'm not an expert but if you haven't signed a contract, I don't believe there is anything you can do. I would recommend you look at <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.hostlegal.com">http://www.hostlegal.com</a><!-- m --> - this might be a bit of help to you.
Just a tip though, next time you do some work, I guess the best thing to do is write a contract and ask the client to sign and fax or email back to you, then you could take legal action.
May I ask how much are you still owed?Now-a-days, Emails can act as such of a signed contract -- If you emailed him the contract terms and he agreed to it, It had a chance to stand up in court -- HOWEVER; a Signed contract has a larger chance of winning..Im just saying, if he agreed to the contract via email and paid half the money and is planning on coming after you for that money back, you may have a chance.Better safe then sorry, get a signed contract next time
Ok before everyone continues, I'll put some perspective upon the situation. This wasn't a tangible product/script per say. The contractual agreement was in place for server administration work (migration of data as well as several other tasks). As stated everything in the original agreed upon contract was completed and working, client then made changes and is attempting to void said contract by grabbing at every straw he can possibly find. Thus, as already mentioned it's definitely something that has me rethinking how payments will be handled (at this point I highly doubt I'll be doing 50/50 payments or due on contract at all for that matter).A lesson has been learnt, no one can be trusted these days. If I understand that correctly than you offered a service to the client. I try to see both sides ( the service providers and the customers).1) For me is not clear yet if you and the customer had at some time the same "idea" of what is being worked on. This should be ideally the initial service you agreed on. You should review once more any information you have. perhaps you have missinterpreted what the customer really wanted ?2) Which part is it that the customer doesnt agree on ? Is it really worth struggling about it or not better to just go the extra mile and make the customer coming back (and take it as a lesson) ?3) Assuming you are 400% right: Then by all means go for it. Explain the customer very carefully what you agreed on and what you didnt.Try to make the customer see/understand why its not possible to do what he requested (use visual samples). 4) Refunds: "To refund or not - is that a question ?"It depends on your policy and additude towards customers. There are some companies out there that would straight away refund all money, no questions asked as they want to keep 100% satisified customers. The problems with unsatisfied customers is that they might provide bad word of mouth for your business and you might never know it.It is a certain "Art" to make the customer understand what was beeing agreed on, especially if the situation looks lost.Anyway, good luck !!3) Assuming you are 400% right: Then by all means go for it. Explain the customer very carefully what you agreed on and what you didnt.This was already done, and the customer still attempted to grab at straws and come up with entirely invalid reasons to attempt to void the contract that was agreed upon. On IM logs I have at least 2-3 instances of the original contract of what was agreed upon. Obviously as I'm not one to name and shame as I don't feel the necessity to post the company in question publicly at this point in time. Due to the fact that there was more work done than what was present in the contract (to attempt to keep this client happy...), I feel it's quite obvious at this point the said individual is just trying to get more work done for free.So valentin_nils, yes he knew what was agreed to, he also received more than he was paying for to attempt to keep him content, and the said client ended up still not paying upon contract completion. All this said I doubt he'll be able to find any managed service provider with how he is attempting to con people.I agree with Frimon86 - it's only a kind of people. And completely agree with Tina..This was already done, and the customer still attempted to grab at straws and come up with entirely invalid reasons to attempt to void the contract that was agreed upon. On IM logs I have at least 2-3 instances of the original contract of what was agreed upon. Obviously as I'm not one to name and shame as I don't feel the necessity to post the company in question publicly at this point in time. Due to the fact that there was more work done than what was present in the contract (to attempt to keep this client happy...), I feel it's quite obvious at this point the said individual is just trying to get more work done for free.So valentin_nils, yes he knew what was agreed to, he also received more than he was paying for to attempt to keep him content, and the said client ended up still not paying upon contract completion. All this said I doubt he'll be able to find any managed service provider with how he is attempting to con people.
We do a lot of development projects, and let me tell you, this stuff happens ALL THE TIME. It's official term, as far as I know, is 'Scope Creep'.
The downside of this, is now it takes me about 4 times longer to write up a work contract, because every bit of every piece I can think of gets detailed.
The up side is, we have a solid policy now. No modifications are accepted until the origional contract is fulfilled. With 50% up front, and 50% on completion. If they decide to can the project after the contract is signed, they can buy out of the contract for 50% of the remaining balance (i.e. at 75% fee) provided our work list in the contract is not complete.
The real trick is, you have to stop these guys early on. If you give an inch, they'll try and take a mile. That's why we have our 'no modifications until after' policy. One rule to govern them all, and let them know you actually respect your time and what you do. When you compromise in the middle of a project, you're not holding true to your word, period.
Don't let bully customers push you around.
My advice is- dont take legal advice from a webhosting forum and have an agreement in place that specifically outlines the work to be done and make the customer initial the section that explains the procedure on how to modify the agreement. Don't let Scope creep kill you!ahh yes, another lesson to be learned through experience. Many people have suggested many things in this forum, many of which are extremely good advice. As a business owner I would highly suggest that from now on you always have the contract in some form of writing. As i do web hosting, most of my conversations take place over internet. So i highly suggest the use of Trillian messenger, it records all conversations, so you may look them up at a later date. As for your situation where it was a verbal contract, there is no way of doing anything about it, as it is just you word against his. I would suggest that you go out of your way to do what he has asked to be added in the contract so you can make the customer happy. Though it will be more work, he will be a happy customer. As in any business it is better to take a hit and have happy customers than to be a ignorant to the customer. Good luck with the out come man. <<Signature to be setup in your profile>>With something involving online transactions the best thing is to invest in a fax machine for the signing of doduments that clearly state the terms of agreement. I would have to agree that having a fax machine is vital for any business that signs contracts on a regular basis.Even with a contract you will still have problems. In the future just pick and choose your clients wisely, if you feel someone is not going to provide you with problems then go with that gut feeling and move onto the next project.Thanks for the input guys and gal(s). Guessing I'm going to have to go the road I had thought and require up front payments for providing any type of managed or management services to avoid future occurrances.Always require a contract. Build a default template, a business lawyer will help you do this for about $1k. Make sure the scope of work is included in that contract, usually as an addendum. Define the problem to be solved, the agreed SOW in order to complete this work, and the deliverables that create billing hits.
I usually do my contracts 50/50 or 30/60/10. I like the 30/60/10 policy, basically what it entails is:
30% up-front to begin work
60% when all major deliverables are met (written in such a way that this is the half-way point)
10% when all deliverables are met (usually includes the hard to determine deliverables like documentation, completness, etc).
I've found that on 30/60/10 I've had far less consulting customers attempt to pull a fast one on me, or claim that we did verbal agreements for certain things. My contract specifically states that the contract cannot be modified verbally, and describes the procedure as to how the contract may be modified.This is what I always do, accept payment (not full) as I am closing in, I ask for the remainder and wait for it. once received, I finish it. if it is a large amount... I divide the work into portions and receive payments at every stage... if the customer backs out towards the end, at least I know I have money's worth.