Managed Services, what is your expectation?
The term Managed Services concerns me with the way it is tossed around in the industry and I am curious to see what other hosts refer to as managed services, how they implement them and also what the consumer expects to receive on a managed server.
In going over one websites description earlier today they had more than five pages devoted to managed services and in my opinion said nothing. In fact at one point they mentioned their backup power, which while I will agree with that it is very important, that is infrastructure and IMHO has nothing to do with backup services.
Anyway I am interested in your view and definition of what you expect to receive on a managed server.It is a term that is used loosly and it means very different things for many hosts. I can tell you what our company considers managed, it a nut shell, if the customer requests it we will do it.
Complete hardware replacement in case of failure at no cost
Complete OS install and Apache configuration and ongoing upgrades
Complete PHP/MySql/PERL support and upgrades
All Module Adds (Zend, OpenSSL, cURL, etc.)
24/7 Monitoring of all systems and traffic patterns
Third Party Script Install and or trouble shooting
Full support and cooperation for CMS installs
Full support and cooperation for Affiliate installs
I find it hard to compare with other hosting companies offering "manage" hosting, when I am not certain their version is the same as ours. Makes it hard for the customer to compare apples to apples.
Others finding this as well?Managed Hosting (<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.webhostingtalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=82">http://www.webhostingtalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=82</a><!-- m -->)True discussions of managed hosting. What is it? Who really does it? What should it be?I can't answer as a host, since I am not one, but I will answer as a consumer.First off, there are three kinds of management (in my eyes) and each one has different expectations involved with it. I will cover them one by one.* Semi / Basic Management*Semi / Basic management is the cheapest of options. In this type of management, the company is responsible for:Network TroubleshootingServer InaccessibilityHardware issues (unless it is colocation)*Basic* questionsIn this kind of management, generally the hosting company is only provided with root access by the customer if needed (not very often). For the most part, the customer has sole root access.*Reactive Management*Reactive management is the next cheapest of options. In this type of management, the company is responsible for everything covered in semi / basic management and also the following (when requested by the customer):OS PatchesSecurity audit / installationSoftware patches and installation (usually approved software only)Module installationGenerally anything else that is common or necessaryIn this kind of management, the hosting (or management provider) and the customer share root access. The hosting (or management provider) does not login or use root without the customer asking for help.*Proactive Management*Proactive management is the most expensive of options. In this type of management, the company is responsible for everything covered in semi / basic management and reactive management plus the following:Tasks are performed before the customer asksServer is actively monitoredInstallation, configuration, and patching of *any* piece of software that is compatible with your operating system and is not against the TOS / AUPIn this kind of management, the hosting (or management provider) generally has sole root access. The customer does not have root access at all. This is done to provide the maximum reliability and to allow for successful proactive management on the system. If the customer can responsibly use root access (and has the time to do so) then proactive management should not be necessary.As a customer, I would not accept anything less than those requirements from a hosting provider who claims to offer that particular level of management.Hope this helpsFirst of all Dean1012 that is an awesome answer and thank you for that. While I had not previously thought to breakdown Semi-managed hosting into Semi/Basic and Reactive hosting I do like the distinctions. I also think that you hit the nail on the head in regards to managed hosting, which is where the work required is done before and without any requests.
Second of all Kacy while to me your service is semi-managed it sounds ad if you deliver a very high quality product. Also, now you have my curiosity piqued and would you please let us all know the host that you represent.
Thank you all again for your answers and keep them coming.There are different uses of the term managed hosting. But really, any provider of shared hosting is actively managing the server to some extent as issues arise the hosting company deals with them. For a company providing shared hosting the better the servers and customers are managed the better the business performs in all aspects. Over time the hosting company will develope its own process of improvement that prevents issues from arising where possible, and increases the speed at which detection and resolution are realized when prevention is not possible. Any shared hosting provider will be providing managed services as they have to keep up with any and all server issues to keep the server performing properly. For me, managed services only has relevance in stating it is included or not only in a VPS or dedicated product. As a customer can be provided with a server and the customer can choose to manage the server themselves. There is a blurry line then between supporting a customer with a server and managing a server. Either way it is best for both parties to work together maintain a quality busines relationship.I must point out to the OP that my response was in general to managed hosting and does primarily apply to VPS and Dedicated servers.First of all Dean1012 that is an awesome answer and thank you for that. While I had not previously thought to breakdown Semi-managed hosting into Semi/Basic and Reactive hosting I do like the distinctions. I also think that you hit the nail on the head in regards to managed hosting, which is where the work required is done before and without any requests.
Second of all Kacy while to me your service is semi-managed it sounds ad if you deliver a very high quality product. Also, now you have my curiosity piqued and would you please let us all know the host that you represent.
Thank you all again for your answers and keep them coming.
Not sure how it sounds "semi-managed", our clients never touch a thing, maybe I didn't list all the things we do because they seem so obvious, but seems they are not. Dean did break it down quite well, so my company would fall into the "proactive" category
I own visox.com and nakedhosting.com
Did you we meet before?Managed to me falls under the aforementioned heading of proactive management. At least for my company's, on the dedicated servers, basically it's like a huge shared or reseller account, so the client doesn't have to worry about anything at all as far as server management, security, etc is concerned. That to me is what management should be.Hi Kacy,
I think that yes we may have met before, possibly in either Las Vegas or Miami.Interesting suggestions from all. Please keep in mind that managed services to a point might limit how much interaction the customer has with their server. Customer A wants a dedicated server. Customer A wants lets say FrontPage installed on their server. This is done for customer. Changes are made to the server by customer and thus creates issues with Frontpage running correctly. At what point does the Hosting Company Charge the customer for x service. This would be above and beyond "Managed Services". Interested to hear your thoughts on this one. Regards,DavidIMO, if the host provides full management, then the customer probably doesn't want/shouldn't have full access to the server, such as root access on Linux. If the customer has enough knowledge to admin a server, then he/she would probably want a semimanaged server anyway, or maybe not any management at all.IMO, if the host provides full management, then the customer probably doesn't want/shouldn't have full access to the server, such as root access on Linux. If the customer has enough knowledge to admin a server, then he/she would probably want a semimanaged server anyway, or maybe not any management at all. Thats is where it comes down to tho. Customer wants B services for X price, and the 2 usually do not meet. We all want our Cake and be able to eat it too right? I would be interested to see how the way this thread goes over the next few days. Regards, DavidThere are so many categories that managed hosting can call into.My idea of true managed hosting is, one where the client tells the hos what they want, the host creates it and the client NEVER has to do administration work. They get a ftp account upload their files and the host does ALL configuration changes.Cost-EffectiveEasily ScalableHigh AvailabilityAttack MitigationRapid DeploymentThe term managed has become skewed over time in my opinion.I have a centos 4.5 linux dedicated server. I have the knowledge to manage a linux dedicated server with or without a control panel. This particular dedicated server has WHM / cPanel - so it is even easier to manage (in my opinion).However, my needs for this server do not allow me the time to manage the server properly so I opted to have full management from my host (review coming soon). I do not have root access at all. However, with that sacrifice comes greater expectation from my host.Since I do not have root, I fully expect my host to do whatever I ask on my system properly and in a timely fashion - as long as it doesn't compromise the server. If I need a user account created, or a library installed, etc... they do it - when I ask.This is full management. In this case, if I requested frontpage extensions to be installed, they would be responsible for doing it. If this messed up my server, they'd be responsible for fixing it.My host goes one step further, actually, and even helps with smaller, non-system related things. For example, if my forums quit working and I don't have time to debug it, they'll look it over and do what it takes to fix it.Since I do not have root, I fully expect my host to do whatever I ask on my system properly and in a timely fashion - as long as it doesn't compromise the server. If I need a user account created, or a library installed, etc... they do it - when I ask.Exactly. A fully managed server is exactly what it shoulds like.... MANAGED. The client SHOULD NOT have root. The host SHOULD do everything for it.<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/managedthe">http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/managedthe</a><!-- m --> definition of interest:# To direct or control the use of; handleThe host CONTROLS it.I have a centos 4.5 linux dedicated server. I have the knowledge to manage a linux dedicated server with or without a control panel. This particular dedicated server has WHM / cPanel - so it is even easier to manage (in my opinion). However, my needs for this server do not allow me the time to manage the server properly so I opted to have full management from my host (review coming soon). I do not have root access at all. However, with that sacrifice comes greater expectation from my host. Since I do not have root, I fully expect my host to do whatever I ask on my system properly and in a timely fashion - as long as it doesn't compromise the server. If I need a user account created, or a library installed, etc... they do it - when I ask. This is full management. In this case, if I requested frontpage extensions to be installed, they would be responsible for doing it. If this messed up my server, they'd be responsible for fixing it. My host goes one step further, actually, and even helps with smaller, non-system related things. For example, if my forums quit working and I don't have time to debug it, they'll look it over and do what it takes to fix it. I would be VERY interested in how things go! DavidThey are going quite well. I really can't complain.3rd party libraries were installed (including one they had no experience with),user accounts were created,my site was migrated,system was tested,forums/site (permission problems) were fixed,even a little bit of custom programming was completed for meThis host is axishost for those who are curious. My domain with them (since I know a moderator will ask) is paluomens.comThey are going quite well. I really can't complain. 3rd party libraries were installed (including one they had no experience with),user accounts were created,my site was migrated,system was tested,forums/site (permission problems) were fixed,even a little bit of custom programming was completed for me This host is axishost for those who are curious. My domain with them (since I know a moderator will ask) is paluomens.com Good to hear it!!! Please keep us upto date on how things go. DavidI am a customer with a PHP background.I have a reseller account and developed some software. I know this software will be a CPU hog and decided I should move to a managed dedicated server before I get kicked out for abuse.I received my dedicated server close to a month ago. My expectations were not met because.* I expected to simply move my code from my shared hosting account to my dedicated account - and expected the code to work the same. After all same company - should have same configuration for shared accounts and dedicated servers. Big mistake., does not work that way for some reason.* I also expected stuff like sendmail and smtp to work., I posted tickets and got in touch (pm'ed) admins on their forms - Close to 30 days later I am still waiting for the ability to send and receive emails. Servers are pretty useless without email ability., would'nt you agree ?* I have been asked, 'try smtp', 'look at logs', 'have you tried xyz'... etc., I even purchased a couple of books on WHM and cPanel and tried to solve the problem myself because I wanted to respond better to what was asked of me - big mistake if the admins cannot solve it, a newbie like me should not even try.* The main reason for me to go to a dedicated server is because a shared account does not have the configuration that brings out the best in my PHP application. So my expectation from my managed host is to at least provide the basic working configuration (email+LAMP) and at my request add the appropiate apache, mysql and php addons that will bring the best out of my business. I hope it's not too much to ask for a special configuration (not immediately but over time). I am not using server to sell hosting like many people., so require some small configuration changes.* I also expect my administrators to be more knowledgable and provide me with appropiate advice so I can make the correct choices that the server will be easy to maintain (for them) and also work well for my PHP applications. When I ask a question I need a reasonably believeable answer., not one like 'sendmail only sends emails to the same server'.I have been lurking at WHT on and off for many years and have learnt a lot here and finally decided to join., because I could use some advice and direction and also want companies who 'claim to' provide managed hosting have a little feedback.Exactly. A fully managed server is exactly what it shoulds like.... MANAGED. The client SHOULD NOT have root. The host SHOULD do everything for it.
Wrong
Hosts should never, EVER disable "root access" for users, because NO host can support the user's modifications or programming fully, NOR should they be expected to, ever. There are 1000s of applications out there, no "managed provider" is ever going to know all of them, or be familliar with all of them, so, ALL customers should be given the root password to their servers, ESPECIALLY if they're paying high prices.
I expected to simply move my code from my shared hosting account to my dedicated account - and expected the code to work the same
Quite frankly, you expected too much.
There are too many variables here. From modules being loaded to different versions of php (5, 4.4, 4.3, etc) to different versions of plugins, to whatever. The fact is that this is an unreasonable expectation, and any developer would know this.
Servers are pretty useless without email ability., would'nt you agree ?
No, I wouldn't. Email is barely 1/10th of what most of my servers do. From handling security to handling webpages, ftp accesses, mysql accesses, dns, you name it, a server is MUCH more important than just email. In your case, all you have to do is configure email from CPanel, which is a no brainer.
if the admins cannot solve it, a newbie like me should not even try.
Wrong again. The FIRST person that should be trying is you (the newbie) to solve their own domain issues. Add the accounts in Cpanel, and you'll see mail working, pretty simple.
So my expectation from my managed host is to at least provide the basic working configuration (email+LAMP) and at my request add the appropiate apache, mysql and php addons that will bring the best out of my business. I hope it's not too much to ask for a special configuration (not immediately but over time). I am not using server to sell hosting like many people., so require some small configuration changes.
What is a "working configuration" for one is not for another. In many cases, you have to tell people what you want or need, otherwise there is no way they can no. Sure, they can guess, but guessing doesn't work most of the time.
When I ask a question I need a reasonably believeable answer., not one like 'sendmail only sends emails to the same server'.
Depending on the question, this is an entirely believable answer. Now, I'm not saying they're right, but there ARE certain circumstances where the ONLY mail sent to the server will be through php forms for a domain.Appreciate your comments linux-tech.
The LAMP portions were not a problem. I updated PHP and MySql to latest libraries and and recompiled PHP to latest version, made sure the phpinfo was the same on the shared account and dedicated. Also email profiles from cPanel were already created just like on the shared account I had initially developed everything on.
It's exim that I have no experience with. The good news is that the issue was resolved last night. Unfortunately I do not know what the sysadmins did but now I can send and receive emails. So finally if someone wants to signup to my application they will receive a link by email with a temporary password and verify by following the link and can customize their profile. At this time email is the only way I know and probably the most popular way to verify account creation., so I deemed it necessary. Is there any other way besides email your using to validate accounts ? ( looks like you do a lot of phpWrong
Hosts should never, EVER disable "root access" for users, because NO host can support the user's modifications or programming fully, NOR should they be expected to, ever. There are 1000s of applications out there, no "managed provider" is ever going to know all of them, or be familliar with all of them, so, ALL customers should be given the root password to their servers, ESPECIALLY if they're paying high prices.
Quite frankly, you expected too much.
There are too many variables here. From modules being loaded to different versions of php (5, 4.4, 4.3, etc) to different versions of plugins, to whatever. The fact is that this is an unreasonable expectation, and any developer would know this.
No, I wouldn't. Email is barely 1/10th of what most of my servers do. From handling security to handling webpages, ftp accesses, mysql accesses, dns, you name it, a server is MUCH more important than just email. In your case, all you have to do is configure email from CPanel, which is a no brainer.
Wrong again. The FIRST person that should be trying is you (the newbie) to solve their own domain issues. Add the accounts in Cpanel, and you'll see mail working, pretty simple.
What is a "working configuration" for one is not for another. In many cases, you have to tell people what you want or need, otherwise there is no way they can no. Sure, they can guess, but guessing doesn't work most of the time.
Depending on the question, this is an entirely believable answer. Now, I'm not saying they're right, but there ARE certain circumstances where the ONLY mail sent to the server will be through php forms for a domain.
True managed hosting should not include root. You obviously have NOT dealt with HIGH end managed clients. A HIGH end client will specifically require NO root login. A person seeking 'real' managed hosting, not this wht watered down version will pay more, be less work, will not want root login, and will expect all of their problems to be done.
I get people that specifically require NO root. One reason I had a client explain to me is, its a security risk for their company. They want the host to have root access and no other.
Regarding not knowing specific applications?
Theres not much out there thats not a general application, that a decent administration will not already know.Gonna back Steven on this one. Our managed server clients are businesses that do not want root, wouldn't know what to do with root, and are happy that we have root to manage their servers. We have some managed server clients we hear from once a year if that, and we make sure all keeps running well for their email, web, and e-commerce applications. And they do not mind paying hundreds to thousands per month to keep it that way.
In the SMB arena, managed server hosting usually entails full management with the exception of the design and development of scripts and pages for the owner's website. Everything else is covered. At least that is what our clients expect, and have expected for over 11 years now.
- John C.I would expect both me and the person manageing it for me to have root access. I would perform simple tasks like setup accounts and packages on the control panel and if i needed something i couldnt do done (most things), they would to it.I explained in this thread (or perhaps a different one) that are are a few types of management in my eyes: no management, semi management, and full management.
AJRLipscombe would fall under semi management - where the host and customer share root.
In my case, i fall under full management with no root access.
I will comment on a few things here:
No, no host will know every application. Heck, I don't know every application. AxisHost is willing to learn any application needed. Whenever I can, I give instructions.
For example, I needed the raknet library installed. It is not easy to install on linux due to the broken makefiles, so I provided detailed instructions to ease the installation. I still don't have root access but I provided the instructions to ease their thinking.
I needed a shell script to backup a few things daily... AxisHost told me I could write it myself to be included or pay extra for custom programming. Being a programmer, I developed the script and they made the subsequent root cron tab.
I can still get things done on my system without extra cost, the difference is that I don't do them directly. I describe what I need done, and they do it.
If the problem is related to a common service or application I can simply say "install shoutcast" or "install mail" or "configure spam assassin to do <whatever>".
If it is a nonstandard, barely-known application, I can provide extra details (like with RakNet). The important thing is that they'll do it regardless.
The term Managed Services concerns me with the way it is tossed around in the industry and I am curious to see what other hosts refer to as managed services, how they implement them and also what the consumer expects to receive on a managed server.
In going over one websites description earlier today they had more than five pages devoted to managed services and in my opinion said nothing. In fact at one point they mentioned their backup power, which while I will agree with that it is very important, that is infrastructure and IMHO has nothing to do with backup services.
Anyway I am interested in your view and definition of what you expect to receive on a managed server.It is a term that is used loosly and it means very different things for many hosts. I can tell you what our company considers managed, it a nut shell, if the customer requests it we will do it.
Complete hardware replacement in case of failure at no cost
Complete OS install and Apache configuration and ongoing upgrades
Complete PHP/MySql/PERL support and upgrades
All Module Adds (Zend, OpenSSL, cURL, etc.)
24/7 Monitoring of all systems and traffic patterns
Third Party Script Install and or trouble shooting
Full support and cooperation for CMS installs
Full support and cooperation for Affiliate installs
I find it hard to compare with other hosting companies offering "manage" hosting, when I am not certain their version is the same as ours. Makes it hard for the customer to compare apples to apples.
Others finding this as well?Managed Hosting (<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.webhostingtalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=82">http://www.webhostingtalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=82</a><!-- m -->)True discussions of managed hosting. What is it? Who really does it? What should it be?I can't answer as a host, since I am not one, but I will answer as a consumer.First off, there are three kinds of management (in my eyes) and each one has different expectations involved with it. I will cover them one by one.* Semi / Basic Management*Semi / Basic management is the cheapest of options. In this type of management, the company is responsible for:Network TroubleshootingServer InaccessibilityHardware issues (unless it is colocation)*Basic* questionsIn this kind of management, generally the hosting company is only provided with root access by the customer if needed (not very often). For the most part, the customer has sole root access.*Reactive Management*Reactive management is the next cheapest of options. In this type of management, the company is responsible for everything covered in semi / basic management and also the following (when requested by the customer):OS PatchesSecurity audit / installationSoftware patches and installation (usually approved software only)Module installationGenerally anything else that is common or necessaryIn this kind of management, the hosting (or management provider) and the customer share root access. The hosting (or management provider) does not login or use root without the customer asking for help.*Proactive Management*Proactive management is the most expensive of options. In this type of management, the company is responsible for everything covered in semi / basic management and reactive management plus the following:Tasks are performed before the customer asksServer is actively monitoredInstallation, configuration, and patching of *any* piece of software that is compatible with your operating system and is not against the TOS / AUPIn this kind of management, the hosting (or management provider) generally has sole root access. The customer does not have root access at all. This is done to provide the maximum reliability and to allow for successful proactive management on the system. If the customer can responsibly use root access (and has the time to do so) then proactive management should not be necessary.As a customer, I would not accept anything less than those requirements from a hosting provider who claims to offer that particular level of management.Hope this helpsFirst of all Dean1012 that is an awesome answer and thank you for that. While I had not previously thought to breakdown Semi-managed hosting into Semi/Basic and Reactive hosting I do like the distinctions. I also think that you hit the nail on the head in regards to managed hosting, which is where the work required is done before and without any requests.
Second of all Kacy while to me your service is semi-managed it sounds ad if you deliver a very high quality product. Also, now you have my curiosity piqued and would you please let us all know the host that you represent.
Thank you all again for your answers and keep them coming.There are different uses of the term managed hosting. But really, any provider of shared hosting is actively managing the server to some extent as issues arise the hosting company deals with them. For a company providing shared hosting the better the servers and customers are managed the better the business performs in all aspects. Over time the hosting company will develope its own process of improvement that prevents issues from arising where possible, and increases the speed at which detection and resolution are realized when prevention is not possible. Any shared hosting provider will be providing managed services as they have to keep up with any and all server issues to keep the server performing properly. For me, managed services only has relevance in stating it is included or not only in a VPS or dedicated product. As a customer can be provided with a server and the customer can choose to manage the server themselves. There is a blurry line then between supporting a customer with a server and managing a server. Either way it is best for both parties to work together maintain a quality busines relationship.I must point out to the OP that my response was in general to managed hosting and does primarily apply to VPS and Dedicated servers.First of all Dean1012 that is an awesome answer and thank you for that. While I had not previously thought to breakdown Semi-managed hosting into Semi/Basic and Reactive hosting I do like the distinctions. I also think that you hit the nail on the head in regards to managed hosting, which is where the work required is done before and without any requests.
Second of all Kacy while to me your service is semi-managed it sounds ad if you deliver a very high quality product. Also, now you have my curiosity piqued and would you please let us all know the host that you represent.
Thank you all again for your answers and keep them coming.
Not sure how it sounds "semi-managed", our clients never touch a thing, maybe I didn't list all the things we do because they seem so obvious, but seems they are not. Dean did break it down quite well, so my company would fall into the "proactive" category
I own visox.com and nakedhosting.com
Did you we meet before?Managed to me falls under the aforementioned heading of proactive management. At least for my company's, on the dedicated servers, basically it's like a huge shared or reseller account, so the client doesn't have to worry about anything at all as far as server management, security, etc is concerned. That to me is what management should be.Hi Kacy,
I think that yes we may have met before, possibly in either Las Vegas or Miami.Interesting suggestions from all. Please keep in mind that managed services to a point might limit how much interaction the customer has with their server. Customer A wants a dedicated server. Customer A wants lets say FrontPage installed on their server. This is done for customer. Changes are made to the server by customer and thus creates issues with Frontpage running correctly. At what point does the Hosting Company Charge the customer for x service. This would be above and beyond "Managed Services". Interested to hear your thoughts on this one. Regards,DavidIMO, if the host provides full management, then the customer probably doesn't want/shouldn't have full access to the server, such as root access on Linux. If the customer has enough knowledge to admin a server, then he/she would probably want a semimanaged server anyway, or maybe not any management at all.IMO, if the host provides full management, then the customer probably doesn't want/shouldn't have full access to the server, such as root access on Linux. If the customer has enough knowledge to admin a server, then he/she would probably want a semimanaged server anyway, or maybe not any management at all. Thats is where it comes down to tho. Customer wants B services for X price, and the 2 usually do not meet. We all want our Cake and be able to eat it too right? I would be interested to see how the way this thread goes over the next few days. Regards, DavidThere are so many categories that managed hosting can call into.My idea of true managed hosting is, one where the client tells the hos what they want, the host creates it and the client NEVER has to do administration work. They get a ftp account upload their files and the host does ALL configuration changes.Cost-EffectiveEasily ScalableHigh AvailabilityAttack MitigationRapid DeploymentThe term managed has become skewed over time in my opinion.I have a centos 4.5 linux dedicated server. I have the knowledge to manage a linux dedicated server with or without a control panel. This particular dedicated server has WHM / cPanel - so it is even easier to manage (in my opinion).However, my needs for this server do not allow me the time to manage the server properly so I opted to have full management from my host (review coming soon). I do not have root access at all. However, with that sacrifice comes greater expectation from my host.Since I do not have root, I fully expect my host to do whatever I ask on my system properly and in a timely fashion - as long as it doesn't compromise the server. If I need a user account created, or a library installed, etc... they do it - when I ask.This is full management. In this case, if I requested frontpage extensions to be installed, they would be responsible for doing it. If this messed up my server, they'd be responsible for fixing it.My host goes one step further, actually, and even helps with smaller, non-system related things. For example, if my forums quit working and I don't have time to debug it, they'll look it over and do what it takes to fix it.Since I do not have root, I fully expect my host to do whatever I ask on my system properly and in a timely fashion - as long as it doesn't compromise the server. If I need a user account created, or a library installed, etc... they do it - when I ask.Exactly. A fully managed server is exactly what it shoulds like.... MANAGED. The client SHOULD NOT have root. The host SHOULD do everything for it.<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/managedthe">http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/managedthe</a><!-- m --> definition of interest:# To direct or control the use of; handleThe host CONTROLS it.I have a centos 4.5 linux dedicated server. I have the knowledge to manage a linux dedicated server with or without a control panel. This particular dedicated server has WHM / cPanel - so it is even easier to manage (in my opinion). However, my needs for this server do not allow me the time to manage the server properly so I opted to have full management from my host (review coming soon). I do not have root access at all. However, with that sacrifice comes greater expectation from my host. Since I do not have root, I fully expect my host to do whatever I ask on my system properly and in a timely fashion - as long as it doesn't compromise the server. If I need a user account created, or a library installed, etc... they do it - when I ask. This is full management. In this case, if I requested frontpage extensions to be installed, they would be responsible for doing it. If this messed up my server, they'd be responsible for fixing it. My host goes one step further, actually, and even helps with smaller, non-system related things. For example, if my forums quit working and I don't have time to debug it, they'll look it over and do what it takes to fix it. I would be VERY interested in how things go! DavidThey are going quite well. I really can't complain.3rd party libraries were installed (including one they had no experience with),user accounts were created,my site was migrated,system was tested,forums/site (permission problems) were fixed,even a little bit of custom programming was completed for meThis host is axishost for those who are curious. My domain with them (since I know a moderator will ask) is paluomens.comThey are going quite well. I really can't complain. 3rd party libraries were installed (including one they had no experience with),user accounts were created,my site was migrated,system was tested,forums/site (permission problems) were fixed,even a little bit of custom programming was completed for me This host is axishost for those who are curious. My domain with them (since I know a moderator will ask) is paluomens.com Good to hear it!!! Please keep us upto date on how things go. DavidI am a customer with a PHP background.I have a reseller account and developed some software. I know this software will be a CPU hog and decided I should move to a managed dedicated server before I get kicked out for abuse.I received my dedicated server close to a month ago. My expectations were not met because.* I expected to simply move my code from my shared hosting account to my dedicated account - and expected the code to work the same. After all same company - should have same configuration for shared accounts and dedicated servers. Big mistake., does not work that way for some reason.* I also expected stuff like sendmail and smtp to work., I posted tickets and got in touch (pm'ed) admins on their forms - Close to 30 days later I am still waiting for the ability to send and receive emails. Servers are pretty useless without email ability., would'nt you agree ?* I have been asked, 'try smtp', 'look at logs', 'have you tried xyz'... etc., I even purchased a couple of books on WHM and cPanel and tried to solve the problem myself because I wanted to respond better to what was asked of me - big mistake if the admins cannot solve it, a newbie like me should not even try.* The main reason for me to go to a dedicated server is because a shared account does not have the configuration that brings out the best in my PHP application. So my expectation from my managed host is to at least provide the basic working configuration (email+LAMP) and at my request add the appropiate apache, mysql and php addons that will bring the best out of my business. I hope it's not too much to ask for a special configuration (not immediately but over time). I am not using server to sell hosting like many people., so require some small configuration changes.* I also expect my administrators to be more knowledgable and provide me with appropiate advice so I can make the correct choices that the server will be easy to maintain (for them) and also work well for my PHP applications. When I ask a question I need a reasonably believeable answer., not one like 'sendmail only sends emails to the same server'.I have been lurking at WHT on and off for many years and have learnt a lot here and finally decided to join., because I could use some advice and direction and also want companies who 'claim to' provide managed hosting have a little feedback.Exactly. A fully managed server is exactly what it shoulds like.... MANAGED. The client SHOULD NOT have root. The host SHOULD do everything for it.
Wrong
Hosts should never, EVER disable "root access" for users, because NO host can support the user's modifications or programming fully, NOR should they be expected to, ever. There are 1000s of applications out there, no "managed provider" is ever going to know all of them, or be familliar with all of them, so, ALL customers should be given the root password to their servers, ESPECIALLY if they're paying high prices.
I expected to simply move my code from my shared hosting account to my dedicated account - and expected the code to work the same
Quite frankly, you expected too much.
There are too many variables here. From modules being loaded to different versions of php (5, 4.4, 4.3, etc) to different versions of plugins, to whatever. The fact is that this is an unreasonable expectation, and any developer would know this.
Servers are pretty useless without email ability., would'nt you agree ?
No, I wouldn't. Email is barely 1/10th of what most of my servers do. From handling security to handling webpages, ftp accesses, mysql accesses, dns, you name it, a server is MUCH more important than just email. In your case, all you have to do is configure email from CPanel, which is a no brainer.
if the admins cannot solve it, a newbie like me should not even try.
Wrong again. The FIRST person that should be trying is you (the newbie) to solve their own domain issues. Add the accounts in Cpanel, and you'll see mail working, pretty simple.
So my expectation from my managed host is to at least provide the basic working configuration (email+LAMP) and at my request add the appropiate apache, mysql and php addons that will bring the best out of my business. I hope it's not too much to ask for a special configuration (not immediately but over time). I am not using server to sell hosting like many people., so require some small configuration changes.
What is a "working configuration" for one is not for another. In many cases, you have to tell people what you want or need, otherwise there is no way they can no. Sure, they can guess, but guessing doesn't work most of the time.
When I ask a question I need a reasonably believeable answer., not one like 'sendmail only sends emails to the same server'.
Depending on the question, this is an entirely believable answer. Now, I'm not saying they're right, but there ARE certain circumstances where the ONLY mail sent to the server will be through php forms for a domain.Appreciate your comments linux-tech.
The LAMP portions were not a problem. I updated PHP and MySql to latest libraries and and recompiled PHP to latest version, made sure the phpinfo was the same on the shared account and dedicated. Also email profiles from cPanel were already created just like on the shared account I had initially developed everything on.
It's exim that I have no experience with. The good news is that the issue was resolved last night. Unfortunately I do not know what the sysadmins did but now I can send and receive emails. So finally if someone wants to signup to my application they will receive a link by email with a temporary password and verify by following the link and can customize their profile. At this time email is the only way I know and probably the most popular way to verify account creation., so I deemed it necessary. Is there any other way besides email your using to validate accounts ? ( looks like you do a lot of php
WrongHosts should never, EVER disable "root access" for users, because NO host can support the user's modifications or programming fully, NOR should they be expected to, ever. There are 1000s of applications out there, no "managed provider" is ever going to know all of them, or be familliar with all of them, so, ALL customers should be given the root password to their servers, ESPECIALLY if they're paying high prices.
Quite frankly, you expected too much.
There are too many variables here. From modules being loaded to different versions of php (5, 4.4, 4.3, etc) to different versions of plugins, to whatever. The fact is that this is an unreasonable expectation, and any developer would know this.
No, I wouldn't. Email is barely 1/10th of what most of my servers do. From handling security to handling webpages, ftp accesses, mysql accesses, dns, you name it, a server is MUCH more important than just email. In your case, all you have to do is configure email from CPanel, which is a no brainer.
Wrong again. The FIRST person that should be trying is you (the newbie) to solve their own domain issues. Add the accounts in Cpanel, and you'll see mail working, pretty simple.
What is a "working configuration" for one is not for another. In many cases, you have to tell people what you want or need, otherwise there is no way they can no. Sure, they can guess, but guessing doesn't work most of the time.
Depending on the question, this is an entirely believable answer. Now, I'm not saying they're right, but there ARE certain circumstances where the ONLY mail sent to the server will be through php forms for a domain.
True managed hosting should not include root. You obviously have NOT dealt with HIGH end managed clients. A HIGH end client will specifically require NO root login. A person seeking 'real' managed hosting, not this wht watered down version will pay more, be less work, will not want root login, and will expect all of their problems to be done.
I get people that specifically require NO root. One reason I had a client explain to me is, its a security risk for their company. They want the host to have root access and no other.
Regarding not knowing specific applications?
Theres not much out there thats not a general application, that a decent administration will not already know.Gonna back Steven on this one. Our managed server clients are businesses that do not want root, wouldn't know what to do with root, and are happy that we have root to manage their servers. We have some managed server clients we hear from once a year if that, and we make sure all keeps running well for their email, web, and e-commerce applications. And they do not mind paying hundreds to thousands per month to keep it that way.
In the SMB arena, managed server hosting usually entails full management with the exception of the design and development of scripts and pages for the owner's website. Everything else is covered. At least that is what our clients expect, and have expected for over 11 years now.
- John C.I would expect both me and the person manageing it for me to have root access. I would perform simple tasks like setup accounts and packages on the control panel and if i needed something i couldnt do done (most things
), they would to it.I explained in this thread (or perhaps a different one) that are are a few types of management in my eyes: no management, semi management, and full management.AJRLipscombe would fall under semi management - where the host and customer share root.
In my case, i fall under full management with no root access.
I will comment on a few things here:
No, no host will know every application. Heck, I don't know every application. AxisHost is willing to learn any application needed. Whenever I can, I give instructions.
For example, I needed the raknet library installed. It is not easy to install on linux due to the broken makefiles, so I provided detailed instructions to ease the installation. I still don't have root access but I provided the instructions to ease their thinking.
I needed a shell script to backup a few things daily... AxisHost told me I could write it myself to be included or pay extra for custom programming. Being a programmer, I developed the script and they made the subsequent root cron tab.
I can still get things done on my system without extra cost, the difference is that I don't do them directly. I describe what I need done, and they do it.
If the problem is related to a common service or application I can simply say "install shoutcast" or "install mail" or "configure spam assassin to do <whatever>".
If it is a nonstandard, barely-known application, I can provide extra details (like with RakNet). The important thing is that they'll do it regardless.