I've been following discussions on whether or not one needs managed hosting on dedicated servers. I know this is arguably impossible to agree on in general, but anyway... ...I thought it would be fun, aswell as informative, to set up a specific case: ME The point is to try to find out what a user like me (someone who needs a dedicated server now) needs to worry about. I have a degree in informations science: best described as an arts approach to human-computer-interaction topics. This includes:- a java exam, UML, OO design and specifically system analysis- worked as user on Fedora, Mac OS and of course Windows- besides html and css I've programmed in php, although this is not something i've spent alot of time with, and won't be doing in my professional life. All in all school has given me an, at least, average understanding of general computer mechanics, including software and hardware. I can build a computer and have an pretty good understanding of what the different things do (software and hardware). I run a few websites, mostly static, but also some small content systems based on what free software i can find. I've always had a semi large webhotel, with a descent controlpanel - with phpmyadmin, webshell, email configuration and so on. But I have NEVER set up a server (but read about it, and could presumably set up my home PC with a packaged install pretty qucik), I have NEVER run a shared or dedicated server. I'm trying to paint a picture, that I have descent technical knowledge - and a genuine interest in IT. If I dont know what something is, or, what it does, I could probably pick it up pretty quickly - or get a friend to help. Could I manage to run a dedicated server with full featured setup but no management? If not, wouldnt the main issues for this be taken care of with a semi-managed sollution (with OS, firewall and e-mail patching). Or should I forget about anything else than a fully managed server? Lets just say that, for the purpose of this example, that I'd run 4 projects on the server 1 a static download site2 a dynamic forum3 a closed static filesharing site4 email and my private presentation homepage This is my first post, but not my first time here , so I'd like to use this oppertunity to thank all the contributors on WHT - it's, at least, above average.The big consideration is ... what do you want to do with your time?If you are a developer, you are smart to spend your time developing. Managing/securing/updating dedicated servers can consume alot of time. Things are constantly changing so you can spend many hours learning. Is it worth giving up all those billable hours (as a designer/developer), just to maintain one machine? Many people are going with unmanaged machines using 3rd party management/security companies. For about 100 bucks a month (towards management), you can save yourself a lot of time and effort. That time will easily translate into more than the cost of a good 3rd party admin.Just something to think about ....Thought about that. --> a semi managed deal (at least the one I'm looking at) takes care of patch-updating their basic installation: OS, php sql and so on. Isnt this safety enough? If someone really puts down your site, a management deal would hardly stop this pro-active? Its either me or them that do a reinstall and a reboot. What would ie seekadmins do to earn their money, besides this? I'm just thinking, that for 100 bucks I could run a small backup server on another host, and it wouldnt matter if it took me three days to get it up and running again. Is this a valid point? I can understand that a company outsourced administration - they need to pay someone anyway. But in my case, besides that it interests me, the backup frame of mind, makes me wanna save money (and learn about server management). Lets just say I'm not interested in making money on the projects I used the server for. But still aknowledge the need to keep a very high up-time. Could this backup and reinstall concept work (particularly if I ran a dedicated backup server)?Thought about that.
--> a semi managed deal (at least the one I'm looking at) takes care of patch-updating their basic installation: OS, php sql and so on.
Isnt this safety enough? If someone really puts down your site, a management deal would hardly stop this pro-active? Its either me or them that do a reinstall and a reboot.
What would ie seekadmins do to earn their money, besides this?
What is safe enough? I am not sure. I have a dozen machines and some VPS and there always seems to be little issues arising. It is not always just security.
With regards to what the companies do for their money, it varies (often in proportion to the price). Some companies just do updates, some do server hardening, some do monitoring, some do monitoring/response/recovery. Some give advice and opinions. One consideration is whether there is telephone support or just ticket support.
I'm just thinking, that for 100 bucks I could run a small backup server on another host, and it wouldnt matter if it took me three days to get it up and running again. Is this a valid point? I can understand that a company outsourced administration - they need to pay someone anyway. But in my case, besides that it interests me, the backup frame of mind, makes me wanna save money (and learn about server management).
I don't think seeksadmin are 100 bucks. I guess it depends on the value of your time. Can you sell your time for more? Do you have people waiting for you to do work? Those are the pertinent questions.
But also, from reading your post, i get the impression you WANT to learn this stuff. If that is the case, then do it. It is worth learning even if you use a 3rd party admin in the future. All I am saying is that you will be putting a lot of time into it. For me, I am backed up with work so it just doesn't make sense. I can bill more in a couple of hours than I spend on the best admin services. It would take me way more than 2 hours a month to stay up with security alone.
Lets just say I'm not interested in making money on the projects I used the server for. But still aknowledge the need to keep a very high up-time. Could this backup and reinstall concept work (particularly if I ran a dedicated backup server)?
It really sounds like you want to learn server admin and security. If there are no paying customers on the machine, go for it. If there are paying customers, get a cheap mahcine to learn on. If you are not busy, now is the time to learn it. Once you are 'too busy', it is 'too late' to spend time learning.
With regard to a backup machine, that is not a bad idea. You may want to use a 3rd party DNS with failover like <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.dnsmadeeasy.com">www.dnsmadeeasy.com</a><!-- w --> or other similar services.
Hope this helps.I agree with the earlier comments - if you want to develop, then develop. If you're interested in managing (or semi-managing) your own box to learn, then that's something different - and it won't help in your development efforts unless you want to develop security products.
I had a semi-managed box for three years with Fastservers and really had little trouble. Only toward the end did the box get hacked and they helped me clean it up. For me a control panel is a must since I don't want to learn all the intricacies of Linux. The contol panel made it possible for the box to be semi-mgd, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to do it. I had other self-managed servers before (with Webmin) and I had a lot of trouble - both with hackers and with admin tasks.
Just my $0.02Thanks for your replies. I think in my case, I should go with a fully managed server - and pay good money, so I could feel free to ask all the questions I want. And just set up a computer at home on my network and get some XP meddling. Altough it seems that one could run a dedicated server that was semi managed, and probably do fine in general. Anyway. One final question: would it make sense to get a management deal ahead of ordering a dedicated server? I'm thinking in order to give the management the possibility to choose OS, aswell as general hardware setup. Could this perhaps give you an extra 10% compared to having them run third party software. These admin must have a first choice... Maybe I'll be lucky and one of these admin would post an opinion on this subject. Maybe it deserves another thread.Thanks for your replies.
Anyway. One final question: would it make sense to get a management deal ahead of ordering a dedicated server?
This is a good idea, but some are hesitant to say which datacenter they prefer.
They will definitely give an opinion of which OS.
Have you looked at <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.softlayer.com">www.softlayer.com</a><!-- w --> - I have one machine there and it is pretty awesome. Their customer portal is extreme! You can reload the OS yourself. I did it twice as a test when i got the machine. One gig or ram it took about 3 hours for it to be completely reinstalled. I added a gig of ram (total 2 gig) and I did it again ... it took between 1-2 hours the second time. Obviously there is APC, etc., too. There are many other very cool things about their customer portal. To provision the server is very fast too. I ordered (new customer to them) and it only took a couple hours to get it. Many admins have been recommending them.
There are other good ones too but I mention them since the customer portal impressed me. NOTE: They are unmanaged.
Good luck.Thanks for your replies. I think in my case, I should go with a fully managed server - and pay good money, so I could feel free to ask all the questions I want. And just set up a computer at home on my network and get some XP meddling. Altough it seems that one could run a dedicated server that was semi managed, and probably do fine in general. Anyway. One final question: would it make sense to get a management deal ahead of ordering a dedicated server? I'm thinking in order to give the management the possibility to choose OS, aswell as general hardware setup. Could this perhaps give you an extra 10% compared to having them run third party software. These admin must have a first choice... Maybe I'll be lucky and one of these admin would post an opinion on this subject. Maybe it deserves another thread. Many companies will offer you a package price managed. That is what many of my clients choose when they want to concentrate on their core business and leave the day to day management to us. Good luck in your search!Amy
--> a semi managed deal (at least the one I'm looking at) takes care of patch-updating their basic installation: OS, php sql and so on.
Isnt this safety enough? If someone really puts down your site, a management deal would hardly stop this pro-active? Its either me or them that do a reinstall and a reboot.
What would ie seekadmins do to earn their money, besides this?
What is safe enough? I am not sure. I have a dozen machines and some VPS and there always seems to be little issues arising. It is not always just security.
With regards to what the companies do for their money, it varies (often in proportion to the price). Some companies just do updates, some do server hardening, some do monitoring, some do monitoring/response/recovery. Some give advice and opinions. One consideration is whether there is telephone support or just ticket support.
I'm just thinking, that for 100 bucks I could run a small backup server on another host, and it wouldnt matter if it took me three days to get it up and running again. Is this a valid point? I can understand that a company outsourced administration - they need to pay someone anyway. But in my case, besides that it interests me, the backup frame of mind, makes me wanna save money (and learn about server management).
I don't think seeksadmin are 100 bucks. I guess it depends on the value of your time. Can you sell your time for more? Do you have people waiting for you to do work? Those are the pertinent questions.
But also, from reading your post, i get the impression you WANT to learn this stuff. If that is the case, then do it. It is worth learning even if you use a 3rd party admin in the future. All I am saying is that you will be putting a lot of time into it. For me, I am backed up with work so it just doesn't make sense. I can bill more in a couple of hours than I spend on the best admin services. It would take me way more than 2 hours a month to stay up with security alone.
Lets just say I'm not interested in making money on the projects I used the server for. But still aknowledge the need to keep a very high up-time. Could this backup and reinstall concept work (particularly if I ran a dedicated backup server)?
It really sounds like you want to learn server admin and security. If there are no paying customers on the machine, go for it. If there are paying customers, get a cheap mahcine to learn on. If you are not busy, now is the time to learn it. Once you are 'too busy', it is 'too late' to spend time learning.
With regard to a backup machine, that is not a bad idea. You may want to use a 3rd party DNS with failover like <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.dnsmadeeasy.com">www.dnsmadeeasy.com</a><!-- w --> or other similar services.
Hope this helps.I agree with the earlier comments - if you want to develop, then develop. If you're interested in managing (or semi-managing) your own box to learn, then that's something different - and it won't help in your development efforts unless you want to develop security products.
I had a semi-managed box for three years with Fastservers and really had little trouble. Only toward the end did the box get hacked and they helped me clean it up. For me a control panel is a must since I don't want to learn all the intricacies of Linux. The contol panel made it possible for the box to be semi-mgd, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to do it. I had other self-managed servers before (with Webmin) and I had a lot of trouble - both with hackers and with admin tasks.
Just my $0.02Thanks for your replies. I think in my case, I should go with a fully managed server - and pay good money, so I could feel free to ask all the questions I want. And just set up a computer at home on my network and get some XP meddling. Altough it seems that one could run a dedicated server that was semi managed, and probably do fine in general. Anyway. One final question: would it make sense to get a management deal ahead of ordering a dedicated server? I'm thinking in order to give the management the possibility to choose OS, aswell as general hardware setup. Could this perhaps give you an extra 10% compared to having them run third party software. These admin must have a first choice... Maybe I'll be lucky and one of these admin would post an opinion on this subject. Maybe it deserves another thread.Thanks for your replies.
Anyway. One final question: would it make sense to get a management deal ahead of ordering a dedicated server?
This is a good idea, but some are hesitant to say which datacenter they prefer.
They will definitely give an opinion of which OS.
Have you looked at <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.softlayer.com">www.softlayer.com</a><!-- w --> - I have one machine there and it is pretty awesome. Their customer portal is extreme! You can reload the OS yourself. I did it twice as a test when i got the machine. One gig or ram it took about 3 hours for it to be completely reinstalled. I added a gig of ram (total 2 gig) and I did it again ... it took between 1-2 hours the second time. Obviously there is APC, etc., too. There are many other very cool things about their customer portal. To provision the server is very fast too. I ordered (new customer to them) and it only took a couple hours to get it. Many admins have been recommending them.
There are other good ones too but I mention them since the customer portal impressed me. NOTE: They are unmanaged.
Good luck.Thanks for your replies. I think in my case, I should go with a fully managed server - and pay good money, so I could feel free to ask all the questions I want. And just set up a computer at home on my network and get some XP meddling. Altough it seems that one could run a dedicated server that was semi managed, and probably do fine in general. Anyway. One final question: would it make sense to get a management deal ahead of ordering a dedicated server? I'm thinking in order to give the management the possibility to choose OS, aswell as general hardware setup. Could this perhaps give you an extra 10% compared to having them run third party software. These admin must have a first choice... Maybe I'll be lucky and one of these admin would post an opinion on this subject. Maybe it deserves another thread. Many companies will offer you a package price managed. That is what many of my clients choose when they want to concentrate on their core business and leave the day to day management to us. Good luck in your search!Amy